Janet Ambrosi Wertman grew up within walking distance of three bookstores and a library on Manhattan’s Upper West Side – and she visited all of them regularly. Her grandfather was an antiquarian bookdealer who taught her that there would always be a market for quirky, interesting books. He was the one who persuaded Janet’s parents to send her to the French school where she was taught to aspire to long (grammatically correct) sentences as the hallmark of a skillful writer. She lived that lesson until she got to Barnard College. Short sentences were the rule there. She complied. She reached a happy medium when she got to law school – complicated sentences alternating with simple ones in a happy mix.
Janet spent fifteen years as a corporate lawyer in New York, she even got to do a little writing on the side (she co-authored The Executive Compensation Answer Book, which was published by Panel Publishers back in 1991). But when her first and second children were born, she decided to change her lifestyle. She and her husband transformed their lives in 1997, moving to Los Angeles and switching careers. Janet became a grantwriter (and will tell anyone who will listen that the grants she’s written have resulted in more than $26 million for the amazing non-profits she is proud to represent) and took up writing fiction.
There was never any question about the topic of the fiction: Janet has harbored a passion for the Tudor Kings and Queens since her parents let her stay up late to watch the televised Masterpiece Theatre series (both The Six Wives of Henry VIII and Elizabeth R) when she was *cough* eight years old. One of the highlights of Janet’s youth was being allowed to visit the Pierpont Morgan Library on a day when it was closed to the public and examine books from Queen Elizabeth’s personal library and actual letters that the young Princess Elizabeth (technically Lady Elizabeth…) had written.
Janet is thrilled to have released the first two books in The Seymour Saga trilogy. Jane the Quene, which tells the story of Jane Seymour’s marriage to Henry VIII, was published in 2016; and The Path to Somerset, which chronicles Edward Seymour’s rise after Jane’s death to become Lord Protector of England and Duke of Somerset (taking us right through Henry’s crazy years) was just released this year. They will be joined in 2020 by The Boy King, which will cover the reign of Jane’s son, Edward VI, and the string of betrayals he suffered.
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Transcript: Janet Wertman on
Heather: Your book, it’s one of these books that I get so into that I can’t stop reading and then I stay up until late and I have weird dreams about it. So, thank you?
Janet: [laughs] I’m sorry about the dreams.
Heather: Well, when we talked before, we talked a little bit where you shared how you got interested with this particular subject with the Seymours. We talked about this other idea you had for Anne’s secret journal and how that kinda went away. Then how you started focusing on– [laughs] it flew, it flew away!
To catch people, this is a book that we’re going to talk about here, it’s the second book of a trilogy. Can you tell me a little bit about the trilogy in general and where we pick up?
Janet: Okay, the trilogy is the Seymour family and it starts with Jane and continues on now at Path to Somerset with Edward Seymour’s rise, journey, the second half of Henry’s wives. And will set him with the Boy King, which is the story of Edward VI.
It’s really the story of the family’s rise to power and spoiler alert- they are the perfect family to really illustrate this period of history because they were really right there. This book is, this is the fascinating one. When we really think about Henry’s line, this is a lot of stuff to think about, all of us. And Edward was in the perfect position to see and remark.
Heather: And you have a lot of people… Again, no spoiler alerts. But there’s a lot of [makes signal of decapitations] going on.
Janet: Sorry
Heather: [laughs] But I was wondering if you could tell me like, after Jane’s death, and that’s when your first book ends, how do we get from this Seymour family becoming so powerful? I’d like to talk a little bit about how Edward felt and how Thomas felt, you explored a little bit of their relationship of Thomas and the way you portrait him, but I’d like to talk about how they felt about the wives that came in and Anne of Cleves after such a long gap without anything and how that affected their power. So can you talk me through that a bit?
Janet: Absolutely. So, Anne of Cleves was like the best outcome for Edward Seymour that there could’ve been his big fear was that if Henry married another English woman, her family would automatically rise to power because… You know, the brother, the father, the uncle and… she was the perfect choice because she was kind of protest and her family was back in Somerset and Edward could continue to be important, this was short-lived importance and then Katherine Howard comes along and this truly Edward’s nightmare!
That there’s a monarch that could solve with a sudden advising and in this primary position. That too didn’t last for a while long and along comes Katherine Parr which Edward got along great with Katherine Parr but there’s that little bit of weirdness that Katherine Parr almost married his brother, but you know, everybody was really getting along. This was the general period when Anna Seymour and Katherine Parr were friends. I mean, Anna Seymour was one of these and they got along really well! This was the group. They were really trying to move Henry forwards to protestant church. I use protestant in catholic and it not quite accurately because wasn’t there until years later, and saint catholic was like Roman catholic, but I use the terms because it’s so much easier! Due to family and people coming from. You know I’m using them loosely but the it’s the idea in that.
Heather: So your book is sets on Edward and his journey but you also have Gardiner over here and you do a lot of triangulating, can you talk about how you decided to do that, how you choose Gardiner and I wanna say I kinda see what side you’re on [laughs], but what kind—
Janet: What I needed to do to really– I did the same thing with Jane, where I triangulated Henry as Jane who saw him as all good, Cromwell who saw him as all evil, this kinda happens and it’s even more important to do that with this book in Henry because it’s kind of when Henry’s crazy. You can’t get it from only one side, you really have to see both of them going “Wait a minute!” “Wait a minute!” and just watch them going back and forth, each side really believed that Henry likes them best. Gardiner was my choice– when I started my book a couple of years ago, I was like “ [hand signals of juggling] but Gardiner, I needed him because of the whole Katherine Parr’s scene, because Gardiner really stepped up and took the lead and you know tried to arrest [Anne Askew] and to catch Katherine Parr with that. That’s why I needed Gardiner there. Even though, I really wanted to contrast, it would’ve been great with more conflict because of […] death, you would have […] in his cell going “I lived!”, but it worked out. I needed somebody, I needed the antagonist, I needed the catholic side to the protestant side, and somebody who was really there to kind of… So, it had to be Gardiner!
Heather: And so, what was that like for you writing from his perspective?
Janet: I did try to be sympathetic. I tried to explain why he was doing what he was doing, but his motives were still hmph! Even with the best motives it was still just about… I don’t know, I see him as someone narcissistic and much more self-centered. And I was able to really find the way to humanize and I fell in love with Cromwell in the first book, I do not love Gardiner in the second book. That’s really all I have to say in that part.
Heather: I wanna talk about the episode with the Cramer and then I wanna talk about Anne Askew and Katherine Parr and that. Can you tell me about Katherine Parr and Anne Askew, what happened with that?
Janet: As Henry got closer to God? This was really about trying to get him to– everyone– It was like a game of musical chairs, everyone knew that when the music stopped, you needed to have one of the chairs! So, at this going, Stephen Gardiner said “Ok, this is time, we need to move Anne to catholic and we have to take down the Queen”. So, Anne Askew should’ve been, except for the fact she was a remarkable amazing woman that would be able to stand up to this the way few men could, I mean, the way almost no one could.
You know, a woman had never been tortured before, that was completely unheard of, but Gardiner decided “Well, this is my chance” because Anne Askew was known to be sympathetic to the protestant church, and also known to have spoken with Katherine Parr in this religion. And so, if he could convict Anne Askew and also connect her with the Katherine Parr’s ladies then in a way, you could bring down Katherine Parr, because it was all about the one thing that Henry really never changed from, was because of the bureaucracy presence and that kind of like the bottom of.
And anyone who was asked about that, by the way, a question couldn’t just get changed… Then all he needed to do was to bring her in court and ask her that question and boom! She was […], because either she would jeopardize her soul or would say what he wanted to know. And Anne Askew wasn’t talking, and she was really smart! They questioned her and she would just answer them back with all the stuff, that was absolutely nuts! And that’s when Gardiner said “This isn’t working, put her on the mat and you’ll get her to talk”. And because people in the town were horrified about this, how could a woman endure that?—
Heather: She’s the only woman on record to ever had been racked in the tower, isn’t she?
Janet: I know! I know, so Gardiner said “Yeah, go ask Henry, go tell.” And then just went ahead and had her racked. But for those people who squeamish, I cut out the scene right after the first turn. I really didn’t dwell, I didn’t dwell there and Margaret Poll. I also loved that one, that one was one of the few things I spent the entire book making sure that each scene that happened, people were actually in the room! That was the one thing that […]
Heather: Yeah I like how you had Henry respond, they said something like “by the fifth stroke” or something, he was like “Wait, what?”, he had been all kind of like not a big deal about it. “There was a third stroke?” kinda gave him an idea of how brutal it was.
Janet: Right and then they answered “They were eleven”. Right? Let this be an isolated skit of all of those. There’s just constraint to that, you know. [laughs]
Heather: What’s that like to you? Like thinking about writing those seats? Does it get into your head at all?
Janet: I try not to let it get into my head, I’m really careful cause I don’t want it to stick it on other people’s head. To me all of this stuff is about the psychological impact of what was happening and then the actually physical.. Well, you know, I don’t need to talk about the blood except to the extent that it affects emotionally the people who were around, you know. I did try to stay away from it, researching the aspects of the tower was unpleasant, but I did stay away from most of it. I stayed away, I kinda did the same thing instead of talking about– they kind of mention what the punishment was, but it focused more on the fact that there were people honking pastries and stuff to celebrate because they were spinning out. That, to me, was the real giver, it really stuck with me.
Heather: Yeah, it was definitely like a fun day out. [laughs] “What’s going on today?” “Oh, let’s go watch a hanging, drying quarter” [laughs]. Ok so Anne Askew, she didn’t talk even after being racked.
Janet: She didn’t talk! That was the most amazing thing. She was carried to the rack to be burned but she didn’t talk! I cannot imagine. It was just unbelievable.
Heather: And I can’t imagine how stressful must have been to be Katherine Parr and some of these women knowing that she was being racked. Thinking “Is she talking? Is she going to talk?” So, tell me about this, it’s such a famous scene that you see: the soldiers coming to arrest Katherine Parr while she is… And Henry turning them away. Telling me a little bit about kinda what went into this and just what that scene was really like, you said kinda from Gardiner’s perspective as he’s kinda watching how this plays out and he’s surprised at it.
Janet: So I wanted to get the scene from both Edward’s perspective and Gardiner’s perspective, and turned out… On one hand this kinda goes against my own philosophy where I kinda gave Edward credit for helping to shape Katherine Parr’s action of how she got out but I really wanted Edward in the room for that and that was part of my philosophy and to just kinda like get his reaction of “Oh! And then what happened?” You know, he really loses his mind, I wanted him to have something agency over that.
As it turns out, the time was that he might have had that agency, because he really did come back right around the time this was happening. If you go back to then 1970’s the Six Wives of Henry VIII, they played the scene as Katherine Parr hearing that she’s going to be arrest and loses ambition and kinda marks a moment to comfort her. As she calms down and she was able to think more about it then she was able to do it. To me, that really shaped my thoughts on what happened, that when she heard “Oh my God, I’m about to be arrested” I don’t know if she necessarily would’ve gone with the “Maybe, you know, maybe what did he did for Cromwell.. Maybe”
I don’t know she would’ve done that, and very well may have planned and that’s quite the way I wrote it here, with Edward coming here as kind of a force and being able to say this might be a trick and having him taking it here. And then, I had to get Gardiner’s reaction to lose it suddenly from being on top of the world thinking “I won! She’s going to get arrested I just have to deliver the warrant.”
And then finding out “Oh wow, I didn’t know”, the Cromwell thing and then the Katherine Parr thing, like why in the world would he try that again? Why? But he did.
Heather: I realized I didn’t actually ask you, I’m assuming people know how Gardiner is here and know kind of the history of what he was doing and that probably not a good assumption on my part. So can you tell me, introduce me a little to Stephen Gardiner, and what his role was in this time period.
Janet: It was originally one of Wolsey’s servant. Well, I say servant but– Wolsey’s men. Because Wolsey didn’t really promote a lot of people and he was absolutely association with the worst and he basically totally supported Henry in breaking from Rome. And then stopped. So he went so far and then stopped. And then Cranmer continued to push and started his own monasteries and students, but wait wait, it was tempting and most of this stuff and certainly not. Because he was a cleric, because he was a bishop he was against […] basically because it would’ve put him out of job. He whole thing idea that men should have a direct connection to the Holy, they didn’t need priests to say masses for their souls, and he was like “Wait a minute, my entire life was working towards this and now you’re telling me it’s not important? Not this is extremely important! This is all!” So, he’s coming from the “I’ve been trained for this, you can’t let just anybody listen to the word of God, you need to train”.
Heather: And did he did then want England to go back to the Pope or to catholicism? And I’m thinking ahead to Mary’s reign a little bit. Did he want to bring things back that way or was he happy to leave the church in England but catholic in nature?
Janet: I think his preferences would have been in returning to the Pope. And I think that under Mary, he was right there, all though they all kinda were like “Yeah we want to return to the Pope but on our terms.” So, yes, I think, I believe he would’ve wanted to return to the Pope in his own terms but nothing like that could ever be even hinted at while Henry was alive. And you know, therefore, the best you could do taking the approach that Henry often came to himself which was catholicism exactly with a different book. All of the rituals, everything, but for the guy who was marrying had a hat, is intact. That’s what I believe, that’s how I’ve written it out.
Heather: And I’m an Episcopalian, so I kinda like all the rituals and that. It’s nice, you know, having a bible there and not necessarily having someone tell you you’re not allow to read it. A little catholic around the way. So, Cranmer and Gardiner, tell me about this relationship.
Janet: I have to believe, and took the position in the book that, Gardiner had to be so jealous of Cranmer because Cranmer was moderately ambitious. He was not overly ambitious, he wanted to be there but the problem with Cranmer, everyone was always saying, he was almost holy. I mean, he was sent to talk to Katherine Howard because people, you know, just could trust him. And Henry felt really comfortable with Cranmer.
Heather: And it seems like Cranmer was the only one who never got on Henry’s bad side of all these people, somehow he managed to…
Janet: He managed to, he was incredibly honest. He was the only guy who wrote to defend Anne Boleyn, the only one who wrote to defend… He really, just honestly kept on telling Henry what he really believed as opposed to what he really wanted to hear. And as Henry was busy playing all these roles against each other, I think Henry recognized that and contributed.
Heather: So tell me about when it seemed like Cranmer had gotten on the wrong side of Henry with that episode.
Janet: Can you imagine? Once again, Gardiner thought that he had won the whole thing so he basically pinned Cranmer on Henry “Look at what I believe,” kind of including the beliefs that would get Cranmer in trouble, you know, when Gardiner was telling Henry the beliefs that all but Henry had known. And there were a couple of instances, so he was vulnerable. And Gardiner pushed! And Henry let himself be pushed but then, behind the scenes, switched it around. And this is one of the things that Henry did, he very deliberately wanted to keep Edward in the post and had them experienced the fact that he was on to them and really messed with their heads.
He was a genius if you think about it. You would’ve thought that that would’ve stopped Gardiner from trying it again, but he did with Katherine Parr! I’m sure that Henry, he was not expecting that. And sorry, let me get back to your questions, so Gardiner gets him to arrest Cranmer, it basically is the same scene as the one with Catherine!! Gets him to agree, “Yes, Cranmer should be questioned. Here’s the arrest warrant to question him.” And Gardiner thinks everything was going good, and then Cranmer comes out with ring and says “Henry has given me this ring as a token to show that he may not proceed without him” CRAP! When did this happen? This was the exact same play that happened later with Katherine Parr. So..
Heather: Yeah, you think he would’ve learned after the first time, because then he winded up being, you’ve mentioned, vanished from Henry after that. Can you tell me about how that came about?
Janet: That took a while to write because I had to sit around a figure out what in the world happened, because he was vanished on the exact same day as Sury was arrested, it’s like an entire faction just blew up in one day. So, as he neared the end of his life, Henry was trying to play around with knowing that his son is going to be inheriting– he wants to make everything easier to manage. And he asks some ones to take back a little bit of the generosity that he has shown throughout the years and he asks basically, all of his […] to exchange lands so he’s got holdings that are all together, he is here, he is there. A bunch of people got this request and said “Oh, let’s talk about this! You know, instead of giving you this, how about of we work beside you?”
Gardiner tries to do the same, and Henry takes this as an excuse, and he’s furious! How dare Gardiner try to do this? Nicholas Carew, at the very beginning of the book’, Nicholas Carew tried to do the same thing and Henry got angry with him and he wasn’t so angry with him over this exchange, but he actually believed he would have committed treason. And so, Gardiner, the same thing happens.
This stuff just happens over and over again! And the same thing happens with Gardiner, Gardiner doesn’t want to exchange lands and Henry is like “You know what? You are an ass. And I don’t know you anymore, you don’t love me the same way others do.” You’re not going to be […] and Gardiner is just out! And just wandering around, around the castle pretending that everything is okay so that other people don’t notice. So […]
Heather: It’s kinda like that scene when Wolsey shows up towards the end and there’s no room for him and it’s like, Okay I might not be crazy about you but that’s just harsh! So on a personal level, I’d like for you to tell me a little bit about Edward’s relationship with his wife, because it seemed like an unique kind of relationship where he really relied on her on that more. Can you tell me a little bit about how that developed, what that dynamic was? So, he never cheated on her. Edward did not have a mistress, he was faithful to Anne and for that, I just decided that this was the relationship that made sense. So, Anne as a strong woman really matched with Edward’s strong character? So, I decided, I really wanted for them to have a great relationship. And they did! They were really close, and she really– I really think she loved him, I do. We know that, later on, she had her own political ideas and I think this was the […] to that, so it made sense that they would have this strong relationship, I also think that was the kind of person that Edward was.
Heather: Yeah I know, I really liked the parts where he was like “I wish she was here and I could talk to her about this!” It was unique to see, specially because right now I’m reading that series on Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II won’t give her the time of the day even though she’s really smart, that’s really interest. So what can we really know about Edward and about the Seymour’s family to prepare us for your next book and also in terms of like their legacy. I remember the last time we talked, you said it almost like the legacy that came so close to being really great and then it just fizzled out and for 20 years, it was really there and then it just kind of left and I wonder if you can talk a little about what they left in English history and why they are interested to study now?
Janet: They were… They are fascinating to study now because of that huge potential that they had and, for a moment, exercised. I went to England two years ago and I was in the Somerset tour, that was also what inspired me in the book, going around the castle, you know, walking around the corners you’d picture “This is the Edward I’ve been writing about! This is not just some lines… Kind of… You know, snotty guy; this is a tortured soul”
Heather: Yeah, actually that kind of reminds me, we didn’t talk that much about Thomas. I wonder what your thoughts are on him and how you portrait him in this book and kind of why you made those kinds of decisions, cause you’re not a huge fan. I don’t think I’m going to give anything away there just to say that.
Janet: I’m not a huge fan. I didn’t have him as a huge part of the book. So, during the whole Katherine Parr era, he’s actually gone. So, Henry didn’t have to worry about any kind of competition, so he didn’t have to worry about having him there.
Heather: I love that scene when Henry starts to play court to Katherine and Thomas is there too, and they’re both kinda making these flirtatious comments, it was just— I loved how you played that! It was really great.
Janet: Yeah, cause Thom had no idea, and oh! Wow! Okay, backing up. But Thom was not a huge part of this book, I did kinda had to set up when he kinda goes off the rails on the third book. I did add up a little bit of Henry not trusting him, and not believing that he could be part of the councilor. That was a true story! You know, talking as part of the councilor, Henry was like “Noo!” It’s tough to say no, that can’t happen. [laughs]. So Thom is not a huge part of this book.
Heather: Yeah, well I look forward to seeing your thoughts too, I’m trying to think if there was anything else I wanted to ask you, I think I covered everything. Well, as always, you’ve been such a joy to speak with. I really— I remember after reading your first book and then reading Adrienne Dillard’s book right immediately afterwards on Jane Rochford, George Boleyn’s wife, and she– they had the sweating sickness. You had Jane dying. And I got the flu right then too, between both of your books, I was just convinced that I’d— with the flu and feverish,and I was like “I have the sweating sickness and I’m dying”. And fortunately, I didn’t have that with this book but I did have some nightmares so.. But that means that you’re a great writer because you really bring it to life. So, thank you I guess
Janet: Thank you! It’s a thrill to be here and to be able to talk to you about this.
Heather: Well, I just love speaking with you and thank you so much!